The cure getting worse

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Lucynda
Inlägg: 4
Blev medlem: sön 07 maj 2017, 21:11

The cure getting worse

Inlägg av Lucynda »

Hi!

We starded the cure the 27th march when our daughter was 6 months. Now she's 8 months (begining the 9 months today) but the cure never works enterely.
Our little baby Giulya is always a very very active and curious little girl. She's interresting about everything (for example, when something new is close to me when I try to breastfeed her, she refuses to eat because she's curious of the new element. We see that she's hungry so we insist that she does eat. When I finally succeed to put her on breast, she realizes she's really hungry and screams before eating...).

Since she was 2-3 months we (and all of our family) have the feeling that she considers the sleep time anoying and fight again to stay with us and discover the world.

Our schedule was the following when she was 6 months:

--- the night was from 8:40pm to 8:40 am. Then we changed the time and put her to bed earlier, 8:20pm to 8:20am.
- Breastfead- 8:41 am
- Nap- 10 am - 11:30 am
- Breastfead + eat- 12:00 - 1:00 pm (she eat puree of fruits)
- Nap- 1:30 - 3:00 pm
- Breatsfead - 3:01 pm
- Nap- 5:15 - 5:45 pm
- Breastfeed - 7:00 pm
- Eat- 7:30 pm

After 2 days she sleeps all night (oooh, thank you for that!).

But some issues stayed:

Every morning when we wake up her she's really tired and wants to sleep again.
She's always crying with big tears 20-40 minutes before each naps and before the night time.
After 2 days the repositioning made her hysteric. After 1 week the nursery rythm doesn't work anymore and made her cry more and more. The flapping / faning doesn't work either after 1 week of the cure.
She's more sensible the day, less confident.

After the 2 days of the cure, she is never scared in her bed. Even now she's not scared, but she's always screaming with big big tears and she seems very sad.

During naptime, she could sometimes play during 1-2 hours without sleeping! (even she never has nothing to play in her bed. She has only a (my) scarf hang to her bed as binky.
We are so tired of her scream that I begin to get her sleep at breast then put her in her bed for the naptime, also my husband begin to do the nursery time more and more to clam her down.

But for her 7 months, the situation get worst.

At night she seems to have paintfull burps, my husband get her out of bed to do the burps and then she begins to scream more and more before the night time.
My husband always puts her in bed for the night (I'm in charge of the day, him of the night) but we understand that she's always want me to get into her bed and that why she's crying. First I succeed to sing a little song to her in my arms, then put her to bed (during 5 minutes, then nursery rythm). But 2 days after we have a heatwave (27°c in her room) and she cries for breastfeed (refuse water) before to go to bed and 1 time during the night... Now she always cry for breastfeed to sleep. It's working in 5 minutes, but then it's impossible to get her into bed the first time.

For the naptime, after sleeping by breastfeed she sleeps her nap well in her bed, but it's begining to be impossible to put her in her bed.
She hates to use her nap (since 4-5 months), she claims to do her stools outside the nap. Immediatly she wake up and ask us to get out of bed go the change place (she refuses to do her stool in bed), and then it's really difficult to get her into sleep again.

We are so tired by her scream that I begin to look for is natural nap time. I'm looking for her biological rythm and watch her tired signals.
First I realized that if we let her sleep, first she never woke up at the same hour during the cure: 6:55 am (2 times), 7:08/40am (5 times), 6:13/55 (2 times).

Now she's 8 months, when we follow her rythm here is her schedule:

5:15/40 am - breastfeed (scream when I put her into bed, it's take 1 hour to put her in bed after she sleep by breastfeeding.. :/)
7:00 / 8:00 - 11:00 am - nap
12:00 am - breastfeed + eat
12:31 - 13:41/50 pm - nap
15:30 - 16:10 pm - nap
6:40 pm - Ritual - breatfeed, listen music, play with her father, joyfull song,
7:00 pm - eat + breastfeed
7:40 pm - put into bed for night (scream when I put her into bed, it's take 1 hour to put her in bed after she sleep by breastfeeding.. :/)

She wake up this last 5 days 1-2 times by night, during the night. Never get her sleep with breastfeed (my husband replace her blanket on her / or replace her, tryed the nursery rythm but if it dosen't work I finished by cradle her)

Then she's tired until the night but it's very difficult to get her sleep :/

Our questions was the following:

- Why does she want only me (her mother) to go to bed, or calm her down when something wrong?
- How can we adapt the current schedule to give her a better sleep? (her father come back to work at 7:20 pm)
- How can we pursue / restart the cure because the tools doesn't work anymore? (we agree that she could be crying because she's upset, .. but don't accept sadness crying with big tears and need the tools to avoid that).

(Sorry for the long message but I am desperate to help her to sleep better (and by the way could sleep also) ^^'
Ylvispylvis
Rådgivare/advisor
Inlägg: 815
Blev medlem: mån 25 feb 2013, 11:04

Re: The cure getting worse

Inlägg av Ylvispylvis »

Hi and welcome!

I'm not used to answer in english but I'll try. The first advise I am going to give you is: Read the GNS book again, again and again!! I'm sorry to say that you seem to have misunderstood the core of it, the Key to getting everything work is your attitude and thinking. Read!!! Also you need to give her A LOT of REAL FOOD, she is a big girl now! Of course you can keep breastfeeding (but not to get her to sleep!) but she needs MUCH more food than you can imagine. Of course you'll have to fix a better schedule but I hope someone better at english can help you with that. 12h night-20/45 min nap-2 h nap is normal. She needs around 14,5h sleep in total.

If you started the cure fine but then left it and now are following HER "rythm", of course she will be very upset and wonder what on earth you're doing! She will scream more and more and the more you try to calm her with new methods (singing etc) the more she will wonder/scream. 8 months is a common age to feel anxiety already so please, read the book again!

Good luck!

/Ylva
S 2013-08-20, SM från början
J 2015-07-23, varför överge ett vinnande koncept?
Tvillingar i magen bf 2018-10-02
TorsMamma
Forumets ordförande
Inlägg: 11193
Blev medlem: fre 17 nov 2006, 09:25
Ort: Stockholms Skärgård

Re: The cure getting worse

Inlägg av TorsMamma »

Hi and welcome! :D

You got an excellent answer from ylvispylvis above. :wink: Please read and re-read the GNS book at least 3-5 times again!

She is almost 9 months old, she only wants what you have taught her. You taught her she needs you to put her to bed and nothing else will do, for almost 9 months. And now you are wondering where the "fix" button is. :wink: there is no quick fix to redo things you have done. Onlyhard work to re teach her the "new" routines.

After night 2 the jingle should have taken over, what jingle do you have?

I would suggest you read, and re-read the book come back here and we'll make a new plan and a new schedule that will work. More food. And more routines where you are the leader, not the follower. :D :P
THEN, we hit the "re-start" button and you "re-do" the cure the way the recipe says. You can't bake a cake with only half the ingredients. :wink:

Also ensure she has a crib in a pitch dark room, you should not be able to she your own hand in front of you at 12.00 noon.
Tor 2006
:heart: BB barn från början. Sov sin första 12h natt 5 dagar före 4 mån, Diplomerad SS vid 6 mån
:heart:

:heart: FTLOC child from the beginning. Slept his first 12 hour night 5 days before 4 months. :heart:
Lucynda
Inlägg: 4
Blev medlem: sön 07 maj 2017, 21:11

Re: The cure getting worse

Inlägg av Lucynda »

Thank you for your quick answer both of you :-) (Sorry if my english is a little bit poor (this is not my native tong ^^').

I read the book again, especially the chapter security (I'm already calm). I understand that the main tool of the cure is the confidence and to be the leader.

We started the cure and in 2 days Giulya was doing her night, it was so faboulous. But something wrong, because the nap doesn't work and she was tired when she woke up her in the morning. She lost also weight. She refused more diversification and she s allergic to all commercial milks for baby (we tried somes milks when she was little but she got immediatly athma and big allergic problem with it). In the same time, we tried to give her more food, our doctor said that I have to give her more breastfeeding, when she ask for.

The cure never work the day: I believe much in it, but I was I think a little bit awkward to put her to bed (myself I don't like to sleep but I understand how it is important this last time and now I do love sleep!).

Now she has a good weight, eat food well.

With your support and the book, and after this last 2 horribles nights (she sleep only 3 and 5 hours...) doing with her father, I feel confident.
It's strange, because the nap is perfect now since 3 days ^^' I sing a little song put her into bed, tell a keyword and she sleeps (more and more everyday).

Our jingle is for the night "bonne nuit, fait dodo" (in French)
For the day "dort bien, fait dodo"

But now when she hears the jingle, or any tools we used before exciting her more and more.
I changed the day keeywork by "oyasumi" (good night in japanese) telling in 2 times "oya" then "sumi"

I know that the more important tool is to be sure of ourself and be confident to transmit the good feeling to our daugther.
But this time, I would like to be sure our schedule is good, because I think the last time, if we changed only our schedule, instead of change everything, we could succeed enterely.

After your explanations, we change the planning to give her more food, now it's:

Night - 8:20pm - 8:20am
Breastfeeding - 8:30
Eat - 9:00
Breastfeeding
Nap 1 - 9:20 - 10:20
Eat - 11:30
Nap 2 - 12:30 - 13:30
Eat - 3:00
Nap 3 - 4:00 - 4:30
Eat - 5:40
Eat - 6:40

After each other meal she breastfeeds (because she drink a lot by this way).
In addition of fruits we also give her vegetables

How do you think about our new schedule?

Our ritual is always the same
7:00 pm - Listen song watching the garden
7:20 pm - 7:40pm father come back, cooking together (he take her in scarf and she loves to watch everything he is doing)
7:40 pm - 8:00 pm put her pajamas and laughting (playing with her tiger plush), tickling
8:00 pm - 8:19 pm Joyfull songs with gesture
8:19 pm - take the train (choo choo!!!) to go to sleep
8:20 pm - little song (when she hears it she baileys each time) + put her into bed + keywork

Do we have to use the same jingle or change it?
How can we do if she becomes hysterical, because, the others tools doesn't work anymore :/ Do we have to use it?

Thank you in advance!
mamaA
Rådgivare/advisor
Inlägg: 1641
Blev medlem: tor 08 nov 2012, 13:37
Ort: Ystad

Re: The cure getting worse

Inlägg av mamaA »

Hi!
I´m guessing your schedual is 8.20-8.20 because of spending time with her father when he gets home from work? Getting your children to keep that rhytm is usually hard most seem to prefer 19-07 or even earlier. My boys have had 19.30-07.30 at it works but you have to work harder to make it work.

When she is 9 months old she should have 2 naps. To have the first nap an hour after waking up is for newborns, by now it should be about two hours after waking up about 10.20 (45 min long) and the second nap would be about 13.30 ( 2hours long) , that way she will have almost 5 hours time awake before bedtime. It´s a bit of a struggle in the beginning because of the longer time awake but it will settle in a couple of weeks.

You can use any jingle, it doesn´t matter, it´s not the words themselves that gets the job done, it´s your attitude. You need to start the cure all over again so yes you need to use the tools according to the book. It´s because you have changes things that they don´t work any more so now you have to convince her again. You can´t do the cure halfways, either you do it or don´t. Reed the book a couple times more before you start!
James 11-03-05
Finn 14-09-19
SM-barn så klart!
mamaA
Rådgivare/advisor
Inlägg: 1641
Blev medlem: tor 08 nov 2012, 13:37
Ort: Ystad

Re: The cure getting worse

Inlägg av mamaA »

3-4 hours between meals and breastfeed just before bed to make sure she is full.
James 11-03-05
Finn 14-09-19
SM-barn så klart!
mamaA
Rådgivare/advisor
Inlägg: 1641
Blev medlem: tor 08 nov 2012, 13:37
Ort: Ystad

Re: The cure getting worse

Inlägg av mamaA »

correction: bedtime at night that is, not before every nap.
James 11-03-05
Finn 14-09-19
SM-barn så klart!
TorsMamma
Forumets ordförande
Inlägg: 11193
Blev medlem: fre 17 nov 2006, 09:25
Ort: Stockholms Skärgård

Re: The cure getting worse

Inlägg av TorsMamma »

Hi,

I just want to clarify something. :D

It is the laughter before bed, she needs to laugh a lot! For about 20 min before flying to bed. You can sing the song outside the bedroom. Putting to bed should not take any more time than MAX 2 min (preferably 30 sec). It should already be pitch dark in there and everything else is done outside the room. The "keywords" as you say needs to be so you can say it with a rhythm and different tones. They are not just 1-2 word you say as you leave the room. It is a short sentence like "good night, don't let the bed bugs bite" :wink: and you say it X4. So it will take you a minute to say the whole jingle, that is why it is called a jingle. :D

Are you reading the book in English or in French? It seams you speak French as well? If so I can see if I have a French speaking advisor for you. :wink: :D
Tor 2006
:heart: BB barn från början. Sov sin första 12h natt 5 dagar före 4 mån, Diplomerad SS vid 6 mån
:heart:

:heart: FTLOC child from the beginning. Slept his first 12 hour night 5 days before 4 months. :heart:
Lucynda
Inlägg: 4
Blev medlem: sön 07 maj 2017, 21:11

Re: The cure getting worse

Inlägg av Lucynda »

Thank's a lot for your good pieces of advice.

The naps are working so great. In one minute. But she is still very tired before.

But fot the nights, it's still complicated. It's hard to do it in less than 30 minutes.
I have two questions:
- we strictly respect the schedule, and on the evening, we watch signs of tireness 10 minutes before the schedule. Do we have to change it or can we insist in order to get our baby used to it ?
- sometimes she cries a little bit harder and I use the jingle louder and it seems to calm her. But how can I be sure than I don't too over jingle her. It's hard to determine the right level of intervention after the fourth day. The second and the third day, bedtime took only one minute. Maybe she was very tired !

We read the book in french. But we understand well what you write. But our written English isn't that good :oops:
Tin
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Inlägg: 1153
Blev medlem: fre 12 mar 2010, 09:48
Ort: Nya Zeeland

Re: The cure getting worse

Inlägg av Tin »

Hello there,
I do not understand your first question.
Yes, you should stick to the schedule, you insist - you are the leader - nothing else goes. If she is super tired you can put her to bed a little bit early for the night, that is better that to get into an over tired state. An over tired child struggles falling asleep.
Clarifying something: the fact that she you have to jingle for up to 30 minutes is fine, she is aloud to ask questions, in fact she should in order to be absolute convinced that what you say goes. So you have your laughter before bedtime for 20 minutes, then enter the bed room, put her down, blanket on, you out of the room (2 minute procedure max), firm loud jingle x4.

Then you leave the bedroom door and make noise in the house (stay busy with something), if she asks a question (cries) you answer (jingle). So this is a conversation between the two of you. Her crying really means :"Really mom, is it bedtime? Is it safe to sleep?" The jingle means: "Yes, darling, it is bedtime, relax and sleep. Mommy is protecting you." If she keeps crying, you keep jingling. Just be sure that you are silent more than you jingle, ie if you jingle 4 times, then be quiet at least the double amount of time. Move away from the door and make noise in the house. Come back and jingle if she needs it.

This is just a part of the process, the first couple of days she fell asleep from sheer tiredness, now she is questioning whats going on. That fine, you just make sure you answer her convincingly (with jingles). She is doing what she is supposed to and now it is up to you to give a very reassuring answer, like I said - its a conversation. Some kids take longer to convince (my number two had way more questions than my number one).

You can do it!

hugs Tin :heart:
Lilla O född 2010-02-04 (42+1)
Standardmodellat sedan 13 mars då hon var drygt 4 veckor.

Lilla M född 2012-11-29 (39+0)
SM från början, vad annars ;)
Lucynda
Inlägg: 4
Blev medlem: sön 07 maj 2017, 21:11

Re: The cure getting worse

Inlägg av Lucynda »

Hi!

Thank you for all advices :-) After 1 week and 2 days our results are complicates:

She sleep all night long but only 10h30mns hours:

She's always crying 10-30mn before fall a sleep. When we put her into bed, she's overtired - She yawn always around 6:20 pm and then get excited more and more until 7:40pm :/
She wake up every morning at 6:20 am (when her father take his shower) and it's impossible to get her to sleep (there are many noises in the house).

Because she don't sleep enought, the 1st nap is really difficult: she want to go to bed 1 hour earlier. Get more and more excited until 9:40 am. After she's over tired and could scream 45 mn long.

The afternoon nap work great. Fall in sleep in 5 min, not crying.

Do we have to insist because we are the leaders? Or do we have again a problem with our schedule?

Thank you for your answers :)
Tin
Rådgivare/advisor
Inlägg: 1153
Blev medlem: fre 12 mar 2010, 09:48
Ort: Nya Zeeland

Re: The cure getting worse

Inlägg av Tin »

Hello again,
so the elephant in the room questions is of course "Why do you put her to bed to late?"
In your post you are even saying it yourself, that you are waiting until she is overtired. Go back and read you own post and I think you know what needs doing. But as always, still be the leader.

I would do night 19:00 to 07:00 or even 06:30 to 18:30 (that is what we have in my house). Maybe the father can spend some quality time in the morning with her instead of evening time. In my house for example it is their dad who wakes them up, dresses them, makes them breakfast and have a chat before he leaves for work.
For this method we really recommend the 12 h night because the little ones benefit from it.

with kindness
Tin :heart:
Lilla O född 2010-02-04 (42+1)
Standardmodellat sedan 13 mars då hon var drygt 4 veckor.

Lilla M född 2012-11-29 (39+0)
SM från början, vad annars ;)
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