Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

A parents' forum based on GNS (A Good Night's Sleep)
Androo
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Blev medlem: fre 16 nov 2012, 14:14

Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Androo »

Hello

We started the cure on our 8 month old daughter, M., on Tuesday.
Before the cure M. would wake up around 10 times between 7 pm and 3 am at which point I gave up and took her into bed with me. She had all her day naps in the sling and got about 3 hours sleep during the day.

The first three nights of the cure have gone really well. The first night she woke up twice, the second night once and last night three times. Last night the putting to bed and calming down during the night took a lot less time than during the previous times. Although I have to admit I still buffed her a bit every time she woke up.

The day sleep is a different story: She used to sleep in the sling so I can understand that the sudden change to cot/pram really upsets her. But I didn't expect this much protest! Since we've started the cure she's hardly slept during the day. She screams and cries and gets really angry when I jingle. I have to buff for ages to calm her down and as soon as I start the jingle the screaming starts again. Today, day 3, she was so exhausted by 11 am I could hardly keep her awake until nap time.

The problem we have now is that she gets more sleep during the night but less during the day. So in fact she hasn't gained any extra hours so far.

Could you give me any tips on how to help her with the day time sleep?

This is our schedule:
Night 7 pm – 6.30 am (11.5)
7 am: milk
8.30 am – 9.15 am: nap in cot (45 min)
9.15 am: fruit pure with cereal flakes
11.45 am: meat/fish and veg meal + milk to up
12.15 pm – 1.45 pm: nap in cot (90 min)
2.45 pm: milk + finger food top up
4.15 pm – 5 pm: nap in pushchair (45 min)
5.15 pm: milky porridge with fruit
6.30 pm: milk
7 pm: sleep

I would be very grateful for your advice!

Conni
Sarisparis
Rådgivare/advisor
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Blev medlem: mån 10 maj 2010, 14:31
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Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Sarisparis »

Hi Androo and welcome :D

What a great decision to go along with the cure and BRAVO for the good work so far =D>

First of all, some comments on your schedule. I would suggest that you change the meals a bit, maybe something like this:

Night 7 pm – 6.30 am (11.5)
7 am: milk
second breakfast: fruit pure with cereal flakes
8.30 am – 9.15 am: nap in cot (45 min)
11.45 am: meat/fish and veg meal with extra butter/oil + milk to up :idea: As much as she wants! And dessert :P
12.15 pm – 1.45 pm: nap in cot (90 min)
2.45 pm: milk + finger food top up
4.15 pm – 5 pm: nap in pushchair (45 min)
5.15 pm: real dinner with extra butter, and dessert.
6.30 pm: milk ( :?: are you breastfeeding her? otherwise I would suggest a bottle with something more nourishing than sole milk)
7 pm: sleep

Now, to the daytime naps.

:?: Are you practising the bedtime laugh EVERY time? :D It is very important that you have some real fun before bedtime. Ideally, she should be laughing all the way down to the mattress.

Try to be as relax as possible, it's perfectly normal for babies to take a nap every once in while and life goes on just as usual while their sleeping. Put some music on, or even better, do some vacuum cleaning. The idea is to show your daughter - with sounds - that everything is perfectly all right. My experience is that "household noise" is often the best tool daytime. Read the GNS-book again, especially about the supreme attitude. Also re-read the chapters Security and Safari.

And another comment:

:idea: You really need to get the jingle to have the last word. Otherwise you will teach her that she needs your physical help to settle down and go back to sleep.

:heart:
Sarisparis
Rådgivare/advisor
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Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Sarisparis »

Sarisparis skrev: You really need to get the jingle to have the last word. Otherwise you will teach her that she needs your physical help to settle down and go back to sleep.
Forgot to say that I wrote this last comment following what you said about you buffing her at night. If you continue to buff her you will continue to buff her. :shock: :lol: You really need to achieve communication with the jingle, and it will "work" only when you have taught your daughter what it means. That is: Everything is perfectly all right. It's time to sleep. I'm on guard. Good night, sleep tight, I'll see you in the morning.

The jingle can be as soft as a caress or a hug or firm when it needs to. You have to listen to your daughter and answer her accordingly. It takes some time but the jingle is the best tool ever and it will be useful for years to come. Take the chance to rub it in now while you're at it :thumbsup:

:idea: And don't forget to read the Security chapter :!: :wink:

:heart:
Androo
Inlägg: 26
Blev medlem: fre 16 nov 2012, 14:14

Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Androo »

Thanks for the quick reply and helpful tips.
We feel a bit silly now that we didn't think of the bedtime laugh for the naps as well. :oops:
I really have to work on the jingle. It sounds easy but is so difficult to get right!
I did feel better about everything after reading your reply and I think it came through in my jingles cause M. fell asleep in the pram for the first time without much crying and screaming. Quite a lot of very angry noises though and it took 20 minutes.
What do you mean with real dinner? Should I swap the meat/veg meal to the evening time? Yes I bottle feed and could add baby rice I suppose. I hadn't thought of that.

Thanks again!
Sarisparis
Rådgivare/advisor
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Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Sarisparis »

Androo skrev: It sounds easy but is so difficult to get right!
Of course it is not easy in the beginning, but it's quite fascinating when you feel how the dialogue enters the scene. :heart:
Androo skrev:I did feel better about everything after reading your reply and I think it came through in my jingles cause M. fell asleep in the pram for the first time without much crying and screaming.
=D> =D> =D> Attitude is everything :wink:
Androo skrev:Quite a lot of very angry noises though and it took 20 minutes.
It's great that you hear the difference between sad cry and angry noises and as you noticed you can't do much about your child being furious. It's his right by the way, and it would certainly not be a good idea to try to make him calm down when he's expressing his anger. So keep your ear wide open.
Androo skrev:What do you mean with real dinner? Should I swap the meat/veg meal to the evening time? Yes I bottle feed and could add baby rice I suppose. I hadn't thought of that.
Food and sleep are very closely linked. Very. So my point was to give as much food as you can daytime. Porridge is not as rich as meat/veg, so I would suggest to have two real meals per day (lunch and dinner). Porridge can be a good idea for second breakfast or the afternoon snack.

=D> Keep up the good work! =D>

:?: And did you re-read the Security chapter? (and the Safari can't be read too many times either :wink: )

:heart:
Androo
Inlägg: 26
Blev medlem: fre 16 nov 2012, 14:14

Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Androo »

I tried the second breakfast this morning but M. didn't want it at all. She had 140 ml at 7 am. I offered her the second breakfast several times between 7.45 and 8.15 but she wasn't interested. Should I keep trying for the next few days?
Again the nap was a total disaster. She screamed and cried so I stopped it after 30 minutes. Could that nap be too early or too late?
Androo
Inlägg: 26
Blev medlem: fre 16 nov 2012, 14:14

Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Androo »

Hi Sarisparis

We were wondering when we can make the first changes to the schedule. This is day 4. We were thinking of the following changes:
1) Having the first nap (worst screaming and crying of all naps) in the pushchair instead of the cot as she seems to get less worked up in the pushchair.
2) As soon as we go into her nursery in the evening she starts crying. So we thought we could move the bedtime laugh to our bedroom and then fly into the already dark nursery straight into bed. Would that be ok?

Another question: When should we stop using the fanning? When I put her to bed last night I fanned and then jingled several times. But I had to go in another two times to fan. She took 35 minutes to fall asleep. Is that ok for night 4? She only woke up once during the night and fell back asleep with one jingle.

Thanks for your help!!!
Sarisparis
Rådgivare/advisor
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Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Sarisparis »

One of the most important ingredients in the GNS cure is patience. It happens that children react immediately to the cure with relief and goes straight to sleep at each time. But that's not the majority. :wink: It's part of the game that the children asks questions: are you sure you know what you're doing? Am I really supposed to lie here all by my self? etc etc (read the GNS-book again, it's all in there).

It's too early to start changing the schedule, you haven't even finished the cure.
What you can do is to use 15 minutes of margin for each point of the schedule, that is put to bed up to 15 minutes earlier etc. But only when it's upon the request of the child, it should not be a "confort tool" for you leaders, at this moment (but you'll be getting there too =D> ).

Regarding changing the place of the naps I would not support you in this either. It is no problem to have different naps in different place (morning nap in a carriage, midday nap in the cot), but it should be the same every day. When you say "pushchair", I associate to this kind of buggies where the child is hardly lying down, I do not think that is the best place to sleep when you're doing the cure.

I would suggest you to use these 11 days to really work on the cure, to "set" the schedule, to "set" the tools and foremost the jingle. If you take every protest (question) of your daughter as a sign of something being wrong and start changing things accordingly, there is no chance she will understand what you're trying to do. You are trying to help her to sound sleep and a good rhythm in general. The cure gives you the tools to do so. My experience is that its best to concentrate on the chapters Peace, Security and Enjoyment (and the Safari) and only afterwords study the more technical parts. The tools do not work by themselves, the magic ingredient is the attitude of supreme confidence and the best way to get that one is the know the Peace and especially the Security chapters by heart. And the Safari of course (rubbing it in... :wink: ).
Androo skrev:I tried the second breakfast this morning but M. didn't want it at all. She had 140 ml at 7 am. I offered her the second breakfast several times between 7.45 and 8.15 but she wasn't interested. Should I keep trying for the next few days?
I believe the feeding will be spread better over the day if you have the breakfasts earlier in the morning. Hence, you have a gap of 3-4 hours between the second breakfast and the lunch. Otherwise, the lunch appetite will be less which will affect the rest of the day. So yes (as I said earlier: patience), keep serving the second breakfast just as she had always had a second breakfast at this time. All is well. :heart:

[quote="Androo""]2) As soon as we go into her nursery in the evening she starts crying. So we thought we could move the bedtime laugh to our bedroom and then fly into the already dark nursery straight into bed. Would that be ok? [/quote] It's even recommended to have the bedtime laugh somewhere else than in the child's bedroom. I would suggest that you have all the fun somewhere outside (why not in your bedroom) and then fly your daughter as an airplane (laughing ideally) into her own bed in her room. Put her into bed, firmly and gently, then go with the jingle and turn off the light on your way out. Do not forget that the jingle is said x4 and that you can increase the number as you feel it according to your daughter's reactions.

Go back to the book (I still discover things re-reading it :lol: ) and do not stress. As Anna says in the book: "If you are to be able to calm an infant who is upset for whatever reason, your own composure must be rock solid." (Peace-chapter, p 52).

Keep up the good work =D>

:heart:
Androo
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Blev medlem: fre 16 nov 2012, 14:14

Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Androo »

Thanks for the quick response.

I realize that patience is very important in this case but our daughter gets so worked up when put down for the naps that it breaks our heart. We buff and fan and jingle but it doesn't calm her down. I find it very difficult to listen to this three times a day for 30 minutes and to stay confident. Sometimes without any success of sleep anyways. Then she is overtired and whiny and clingy all day. She looks more exhausted now than before the cure. This is where we struggle with the supreme confidence!!

The pushchair we use can be made totally flat and she likes sleeping on her back anyways. So I think she is comfortable.
Sarisparis
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Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

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Of course it's tough on you all. :heart: When you do not sleep enough, it affects your whole life. But keep in mind your achievements so far, your daughter used to wake up 10 times a night and now she actually sleeps longer periods in a row. That 's an excellent beginning. Stay confident in what you're doing and keep your objective in sight (if you've forgotten, ready the Enjoyment chapter again :D ).

Something you can do to ease up the putting to bed is to position her and then keep the fan until she's almost sleeping. And then leave with the jingle and be ready to really work with your voice to achieve communication (if needed, she might as well just fall asleep). It's not a good idea to go in several times after having put her to bed, it might "deactivate" the jingle. If you really feel you need to go in, make sure you do not enter her room directly upon the jingle as the jingle then takes the meaning "mummy's on our way". (The message is "All is well, mummy's on guard outside". :heart:

:?: What does your days look like? Are you guys outside a lot? Does she participate in what you're doing?

My experience is that kids are more than happy to go to bed if

:!: they have had their ratio of fresh air
:!: they have eaten just as much as possible
:!: they have participated in the real work of the household (empty the dishwasher, sort the dirty laundry and start the laundry machine, be in charge of turning on and off the light, help to turn the key when you're locking the door, etc etc etc).
:arrow: they have moved around a lot so that they actually are physically tired and longing for some nice rest in a confortable bed
:idea: and especially if they hit the bed laughing :lol:

On the topic of participating in real life, have you seen this wonderful (less than one minute) film of a 9 months old girl helping her mother with the laundry? Her mother is one of the "helpers" at this forum. :wink: ("Tack" means "thank you" and it is a very important word when communicating with kids.)

:heart:
Androo
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Blev medlem: fre 16 nov 2012, 14:14

Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Androo »

Thanks for the advice about the fanning. That makes sense and we will start doing that.

We are usually very busy, - swimming, playgroups, rhyme time, walks. But at the moment we're hardly out since Anna advices to have a quiet first and follow up week. I've also not been for many walks because M. is so tired that I'm worried she will fall asleep in the sling or pushchair outwith her nap times.
We will start going back to our play groups this week I think since the times fit in with our schedule.
Androo
Inlägg: 26
Blev medlem: fre 16 nov 2012, 14:14

Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Androo »

Dear Sarisparis

Thanks for the fanning tip! It worked really well last night. I fanned for 15 mins, jingled my way out and gave the confirmation jingle and that was her until 1.30 am. She woke up another 2 times after that. I couldn't get her to go quiet again when she woke up at 5.20 am. I put the vacuum cleaner on but she didn't care. I've dug out our Mozart CD and will try that next time.
The fanning also worked really well this morning. For the first time since we started the cure M. slept during her morning nap!!! She got 25 minutes out of it. We are so pleased.
Thanks again!
Sarisparis
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Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

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Great to hear about your progress :D =D>

I do not mean to be a party ruiner, but I still want to warn you about not being too happy about this new magic tool. :shock: Keep in mind that your goal is to teach your daughter how great it is to get to bed and to go to sleep all by her self.
:arrow: That is abandoning the physical tools for the jingle. All this is very well explained in the Security chapter, especially the first pages. I can not insist enough on the importance of reading and re-reading this chapter. :shock: :lol:

My thoughts about your regular schedule with lots of activities such as playgroups, is that it can be quite demanding for small kids. My experience is that what I often call "overstimulated" kids have more problems to calm down and actually appreciate going to sleep than kids who have had a well routined day in a well known environment. As Anna says, the world needs to be small before it can grow bigger. If you go on all these activities because you feel that this is something your daughter needs, my reaction would be a big no. Some of these activities can indeed be a good thing, for all of you, but no 8 months old child (or even 2 years) needs external activities several times a week.

My advice is that you get a copy of Annas great book "For the Love of Children". It goes way beyond pure childkeeping. The basic message is that children needs to be needed, they need to feel that they contribute to the family's survival. These might seem dramatic taken out of the context, that's why I suggest you to read the context :wink: (FTLOC, available in the bookshop here at Annas website or at amazon).

When you have finished the cure (in about a week) it's very important that you keep the schedule. Hence, you will need to check how the activities you (might) want to do fit the schedule.

Now keep up the good work and do not get stuck fanning. :wink: (Read the Security chapter :P :lol: )

:heart:
Androo
Inlägg: 26
Blev medlem: fre 16 nov 2012, 14:14

Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

Inlägg av Androo »

Hi Sarisparis

We don't do all these activities every week. I appreciate your thoughts on this but I'm sure we have a good balance between relaxed home time and social, active time outwith the home.

Last night was not so good. M. woke up every hour. This morning nap didn't work either. I fanned for 20 minutes but as soon as I started the jingle she cried and screamed again and never calmed down. I remember that it is normal for things to go worse again after the first success so hopefully that's what the problem is.
Sarisparis
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Re: Nights a lot better - days a lot worse

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Hi Androo :D
Androo skrev:We don't do all these activities every week. I appreciate your thoughts on this but I'm sure we have a good balance between relaxed home time and social, active time outwith the home.
Glad to hear that. Sometimes I get the impression that parents force them selves to do a lot of activities with the baby in order to be "good parents" whereas it actually is more exhausting than fun for all parts. :roll: Maybe I seemed a bit critical towards you, that was not my intention, it's a subject that triggers me easily.
Androo skrev:Last night was not so good. M. woke up every hour. This morning nap didn't work either. I fanned for 20 minutes but as soon as I started the jingle she cried and screamed again and never calmed down. I remember that it is normal for things to go worse again after the first success so hopefully that's what the problem is.
How did you handle the situation when M woke up ? It doesn't really matter how many times the child wakes up (although it can be quite frustrating for us parents), the important thing is to know what to do (and what not to do, especially) when it happens. You should be absolutely confident with the message you pass on to your child - "All is well. It's time to sleep."
I'm sorry to always ask the same question :oops: , but did you re-read the Security chapter? It's fundamental and when you go back and read things during the cure period you may see the text from a different angle. And pennies might fall down a bit harder. :wink:

Keep up the confidence, always make sure the jingle gets the last word and never forget the bedtime laugh. You'll get there.

:heart:
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