Getting stuck with the buffing

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SimonV
Inlägg: 6
Blev medlem: fre 29 jun 2012, 21:00

Getting stuck with the buffing

Inlägg av SimonV »

Hi,

My wife and i have decided to change the sleep routine for our 10 month old baby.

Until this week he slept with his mum and breast fed on demand at night. And breast fed to sleep. We did this with our 3yr old too, but things are a little different now. I have to go away to work for 4 nights of the week and will have to leave the wife to cope. We decided we wanted to change our routine and for the little man to be able to settle himself to sleep.

We both read the book over the last 2 weeks and fully agree with its principles. We are totally against any cry it out techniques.

We started this week on Monday and things were going ok. We are on night 4 tonight and we have had a bad time of it today.

Over the last few nights i've thought that iv'e been buffing too much for the 'reminders', a few times ive buffed him to sleep for my sins, this has usually happened if he wakes towards the end of a nap or at 3am onwards.

When i leave after a 'reminder' when he's totally settled he rolls straight onto his back before im even out the door and starts to fuss. 8/10 times he starts to cry, jingles dont seem to be settling him, and i nearly always have to go back in to give him the 'reminder' after a few minutes or so. Jingles seem to actually wind him up more!

Today, i decided id been a little too soft and for his 1.5hr afternoon nap i decided to stick to plan (as written in book) and only buff to settle him and then leave jingling, jingle every minute or so to try to settle if still 'questioning' and then more often than not (95% of the time) having to go and give the 'reminder'. Well for this nap, he went ballistic. He wouldnt stay on his front and wriggled all over (didnt realise he was so strong) and i thought i was using too much force in pinning him down. The first night was much easier! This was accompanied by the worst screaming we've ever encountered with him. I couldnt even buff as he was wriggling so much. It felt so strange to re-position him using such force.

I've two questions:

1) Is he rejecting this method and deciding that he will use all his power to get us to stop the process and pick him up?

2) How do i break the cycle of too much buffing? If nearly every time i have to go back in to do a 'reminder', its like the jingles arent working. Any tips please?

Tonight for sleeps he did it again and the wife came into the room and rocked him and then placed him in the cot. Something which she's never done before.

Any help would be greatly appreciated as im feeling he now will just go ballistic to get out of the routine.

Thanks
Sarisparis
Rådgivare/advisor
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Blev medlem: mån 10 maj 2010, 14:31
Ort: Frankrike

Re: Getting stuck with the buffing

Inlägg av Sarisparis »

Hi SimonV and welcome to Anna's forum :D

Congratulation to your decision to get great sleep for the whole family. :thumbsup:

It is very easy to focus on the techniques when doing the cure, but the most important tool is the attitude of supreme confidence (p 166 in the GNS book). Your son absorbs everything you say and do, of course, but even more HOW you say and do what you're saying and doing. :wink:

The second most important tool in the cure is the jingle (p 162). Especially for big boys as your son. As you say, he is very strong, and if you feel like you're being "too hard", you do not feel confortable about what you're doing - and he picks that up instantly. And so on. #-o :lol:

I wonder if I am misunderstanding you :oops: , or if you have misunderstood the book :roll: . The "reminder" does not require you going in to the room, once some nights have passed. The reminder is a variation of the jingle, to confirm that everything is indeed all right and that he can go to sleep calmly. Take a look at p 124 in the book, it's well explained in the chapter about little Hans.
SimonV skrev:1) Is he rejecting this method and deciding that he will use all his power to get us to stop the process and pick him up?
No, I believe he's asking a ton of question: DO YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING :?: ARE YOU ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT I CAN GO TO SLEEP SAFELY :?:
As I said above, it's all about your attitude. You need to inspire confidence, to be the guide described in the Safari (p 41).
SimonV skrev:2) How do i break the cycle of too much buffing? If nearly every time i have to go back in to do a 'reminder', its like the jingles arent working. Any tips please?
The jingle will not "work" if you haven't tought your son what it means. And learning your son what it means implies that you manages to make contact with your son, with you outside his room, only with your voice. Read about the jingle again (p 162) in the toolbox. Think Pavarotti 8)
I also strongly recommend you to re-read the chapter entitled Security (p 63). And while you're at it: read also about Enjoyment. That's what life's about, do not forget. :D
(If you really have a crisis going on, you can exceptionally go in and use the fanning (p 151), all the way into sleep. Just to break the bad pattern of going in and buffing all the time. But this should be done one time ideally, then let the jingle do its job. :wink: )

I also insist on the very important bed time laugh (p 149). You need to show your son exactly how nice life is and how nice it is to take a rest once in a while. He should be oh so happy when he is put to bed.
Be sure also to make life great daytime too. Invite him to whatever you're doing, "need" his help to empty the dishwasher, to clean spots on the floor... Go outside and discover trees together. In brief, after a really good day it is so nice to get a really good night. And vice versa.
SimonV skrev:Tonight for sleeps he did it again and the wife came into the room and rocked him and then placed him in the cot. Something which she's never done before.
I understand that it might seem as the easiest solution, but the more you change your habits, the more questions he will ask the next time. If you're unsure about the cure and the jingle you should go back to book. You really need to know it all by heart. As Anna say in the book: once you're doing the cure, only the child has the right to ask questions. Children "hear" so much more than what our words say. It's ALL about attitude. Once you feel like the cure is really a blessing for your son, that you all are finally going to enjoy great sleep, then he will be able to believe you. And take your word (the jingle :wink: ) for it.

:idea: Post your schedule (naps and food) here if you want to, maybe something could be improved.

:heart:
Nat
Inlägg: 1613
Blev medlem: mån 28 feb 2011, 22:18

Re: Getting stuck with the buffing

Inlägg av Nat »

Hi and welcome!

I agree with Sarisparis, it is absolutely essential that you start working with the jingle and stop using the buffing. Remember you should only buff or use the pressure method in a real crise as when the shild is hysterical.

Start using the jingle and try it with different tone, different melody, you can say it very soft, strong, almost whisper it and much more. It should be your way to give your son feedback. Listen to your child, what is he really screaming about? is he angry? sad? and answer him in a satisfing way (with the jingle). Wait 2 minutes and see his response. Give him yet another jingle. Wait 2 minutes. This way you HAVE to contine until he is calm, relaxed and does not ask anymore questions.
Dont give in and start buffing in frustration.
STAY ON THE OUTSIDE of the room :D
You can actually put a poster on the childs door saying just that :shock: 8)

Good luck!
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SimonV
Inlägg: 6
Blev medlem: fre 29 jun 2012, 21:00

Re: Getting stuck with the buffing

Inlägg av SimonV »

Hi,

Thanks for replies.

I do agree, that i have to get the jingle message across, which so far seems to have failed.

Tonight following yesterdays drama he wont have it on his front. Started the bedtime routine screaming as soon as placed in bed (5 mins previously we had a great time in the bath, and joking with sister on her bed).

I've settled him 4 times already tonight (7pm bedtime) using a gentle fan and a small amount of buffing. I've ensured as soon as he stops moaning that i leave nd jingle. So far, no compaints upon leaving, but still my jingles when he's asked questions tonight have had no effect, and i've had to go in after a few minutes to settle as the crying was getting quite loud and even tho my jingles were at full volume he didnt subside.

Are you saying that i should also give a longer time between sets of jingles. i aim for a minute if possible, but his cries dont seem to subside. Are you suggesting an element of let him cry quite loudly without letup for 2 minutes before trying another jingle? If the last few nights are anything to go by, he's usually quite worked up by then.

His mum is staying out tonight with sister, so im determined to get it right tonight.

Thanks again.
Sarisparis
Rådgivare/advisor
Inlägg: 2797
Blev medlem: mån 10 maj 2010, 14:31
Ort: Frankrike

Re: Getting stuck with the buffing

Inlägg av Sarisparis »

SimonV skrev:Are you suggesting an element of let him cry quite loudly without letup for 2 minutes before trying another jingle?
The GNS cure is not about counting minutes and "trying" different kinds of jingles. It's about COMMUNICATION. You have to really listen to your boy.

:?: Is he angry? :arrow: Let him react. The tools does not "work" on angry kids, as they do not ask for your help.
:?: Is he just making sounds? :arrow: Let him be, respect his private life 8)
:?: Is he sad? :arrow: Then you intervene. Jingle and use a tone that ANSWERS his questions. "All is well" should be the bottom line, but you will be surprised of how many ways there are to pronounce the jingle. :wink:

I know it's hard to hear your child "cry loud", but once you really start to LISTEN you will learn that there are so many different kinds of "cry" - and that some of them really are injures :shock: :lol: (which he has the perfect right to pronounce :wink: )

Once again, do not be afraid of the noise. Let him react to your message and it's perfectly ok if he does not say "ok dad, great, I'll go to sleep now". But you must stand firm with your message: "It's time for you to sleep now." Hence, you need to assume your role as a leader.
The schedule makes it easy to be sure that nap time indeed is nap time (and good night is indeed good night). You KNOW that you are giving your son what he needs, and when he needs it. So stand strong and calm. If you're not calm you will not be able to transmit any calm to him. And that's the first piece of the cure - peace. And continued peace turns into security and continued security turns into enjoyment of life. A good plan :thumbsup:

:?: Have you read the Security-chapter thoroughly? In my opinion it is the most important part of the book.

If you started the cure on Monday, you really need to start be confident with the jingle. If you still go in four times, or more, all he learns is that dad will come back if I call. Read about the jingle again. Or imagine that you broke your two legs and are stuck in a wheelchair - how would you do then to calm your son? :wink:

:heart:
SimonV
Inlägg: 6
Blev medlem: fre 29 jun 2012, 21:00

Re: Getting stuck with the buffing

Inlägg av SimonV »

Thanks again,

Most of his screams are the sad/frightened type (he's a big softy :) )

I'm jingling away like crazy, but there's been a lot of heart wrenching crying tonight between jingles.

I do feel there's a little progress with the acceptance of jingling and i'm also escaping the room tonight on a jingles unlike other nights.

It feels like night 1 again, only worse. :)
Sarisparis
Rådgivare/advisor
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Blev medlem: mån 10 maj 2010, 14:31
Ort: Frankrike

Re: Getting stuck with the buffing

Inlägg av Sarisparis »

How was the night?
SimonV skrev:I do feel there's a little progress with the acceptance of jingling
:thumbsup: =D>
SimonV skrev:i'm also escaping the room tonight on a jingles unlike other nights.
You mean you never used the jingle when you left the room until now? It is very important that you always use the jingle when you leave the room, so that the jingle works as a transition with you leaving him to go to sleep. Do you see what I mean (sorry, my English is a but rusty)?
Every stage of the cure is built on purpose. Simply put, it's about learning your son to take your word (the jingle) for a guarantee that everything is all right and that it's time to go to sleep.
But as the child never has heard of anything such as the jingle the first night, you have to teach him what it's about. Hence, the first nights you help your child to peace physically (buffing, fanning) ALWAYS closing every intervention from your side with the jingle. Soon, the child associates peace and sleep with the jingle and the jingle on it's own is enough to get the message (all is well, sleep tight) through.
Do not forget, only the child has the right to ask questions during the cure. Your job is to answer them in a way that satisfies the child. So do not close the book, you will notice that you read things differently the second and the third time. :wink:

:heart:
SimonV
Inlägg: 6
Blev medlem: fre 29 jun 2012, 21:00

Re: Getting stuck with the buffing

Inlägg av SimonV »

Last night was bad in terms of him not making the leap into self induced sleep. There was about 20 times i had to go in. Sounds a lot. I probably jingled outside his door three times that, but not once did he goto sleep from crying. Only after settling in the room.

I've always done a jingle upon leaving but until last night ive never actually managed to get out of the room before he started crying. Most of his crying last night was quite gentle apart from right at the beginning and from 5am onwards. So for the gentle crying periods i jingled about once every ten minutes when his tone changed. Most of his crying was a tired/sad kind of cry. Not too forceful, and seemingly very close to going to sleep, but he never managed it.

In total he slept about 7.5 hrs last night between 7-7.

In comparison the first 3 nights he slept about 10hrs or more and only woke 3-4 times.
TorsMamma
Forumets ordförande
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Blev medlem: fre 17 nov 2006, 09:25
Ort: Stockholms Skärgård

Re: Getting stuck with the buffing

Inlägg av TorsMamma »

Hi and welcome! :D

You have received the most expert advice we can give you I just want to emphasize in a couple of things. :heart:

:arrow: The jingle is always a minimum of x4. Lets say; Sleep tight don’t let the bedbugs bite, Sleep tight don’t let the bedbugs bite, Sleep tight don’t let the bedbugs bite, Sleep tight don’t let the bedbugs bite!
But you can say it X6 x8 or even X10 or X12 if necessary. It is communication we want here. Listen, does he scream constantly or does it go up and down.

:arrow: If you have gone into the room, (no more buffing) do the sunfeather and hold it. Say the jingle on the way out. The first X1 on your way to the door the rest X3 outside the room closing the door.

:arrow: :!: If you jingle and go directly into the room because you believe the jingle dosen’t work, you disarm the jingle making it mean “hold on I will come in soon”. So you need for the time to pass a bit from your jingle until you enter the room. (if you must)

:idea: I would suggest you see tonight as night 2 from the cheat sheet. And use the jinge and when calm you give the confirmation jingle also always X4 until night 4 or so. Then you put the two jingles together.

:!: Read everything in the book you got recommended again. When you are in the middle of the cure this helps.

:idea: Print the cheat sheet and put on the door.

http://www.annawahlgren.com/index.php/v ... heat-sheet

:arrow: Have your wife read the safari chapter again.

:!: No hesitation, just full confidence, that is what we want here. 8)

:arrow: Try to see the cry as they are questions? What are you doing? Do you know what you are doing? Can I really sleep without you? Is this safe? And so on. What are the answers?

:!: Good luck with tonight!
Tor 2006
:heart: BB barn från början. Sov sin första 12h natt 5 dagar före 4 mån, Diplomerad SS vid 6 mån
:heart:

:heart: FTLOC child from the beginning. Slept his first 12 hour night 5 days before 4 months. :heart:
SimonV
Inlägg: 6
Blev medlem: fre 29 jun 2012, 21:00

Re: Getting stuck with the buffing

Inlägg av SimonV »

Thanks for all the advice. We really appreciate it.

A few more queries:

How long would you leave him to cry between jingles if its a medium level sad cry? Not screaming but a loud cry. And if this continues for an hour, how long would you leave it before going in? Last night he cried for ages without getting really really upset so i left him too it, but he never fell asleep. :)

Also if he point blank refuses to be placed on his stomach, what should i do? I find it awkward pinning him down with such force when he refuses to lie on his tummy (he is normally a tummy sleeper though).
Sarisparis
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Blev medlem: mån 10 maj 2010, 14:31
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Re: Getting stuck with the buffing

Inlägg av Sarisparis »

SimonV skrev:How long would you leave him to cry between jingles if its a medium level sad cry? Not screaming but a loud cry. And if this continues for an hour, how long would you leave it before going in? Last night he cried for ages without getting really really upset so i left him too it, but he never fell asleep.
It is impossible to answer in time when is the ideal moment to intervene, it's ALL about active listening from your side. If he cries without being sad, and you feel he's "stuck", I would suggest you to send off a jingle saying firmly "that's enough, now it's time to sleep". Then listen carefully to his reaction and take it from there.
SimonV skrev:Also if he point blank refuses to be placed on his stomach, what should i do? I find it awkward pinning him down with such force when he refuses to lie on his tummy (he is normally a tummy sleeper though)
When you put him to bed, I advice you to position him as Anna describes in the GNS book, that is on the tummy. Confirm with a little pressure and then GO with the jingle. If he instantly gets up, let him be, he's able to get back down in bed and he's perfectly capable of choosing how to lie.
Take a look at p 207 (Questions and answers "Standing up in bed").

:heart:
SimonV
Inlägg: 6
Blev medlem: fre 29 jun 2012, 21:00

Re: Getting stuck with the buffing

Inlägg av SimonV »

Hi, again thanks for advice and patience.

Having another night where he just isnt making the step to self induced sleep after a jingle.

I've done everything, know the book off by heart almost. I'm next door on a laptop and have the book on my phone next to me always open.

I feel quite close to giving up. Please read an extract from my log tonight. But let me say we have carried out all the techniques, but please if im doing anything amiss please let me know:

1900- placed in bed, buff/fan/jingle on exit, doesnt like it, mild complaints.
1905- Jingle - no change
1911- Jingle - no difference. Crying slowly getting louder and more upset
1916- Still crying so go in. Reposition/Fan/Setttled/Jingled, no questions on exit but still awake. Gave confirmation 20secs later.
ASLEEP
1931- cough woke him up. Cries/little scream/Jingle from outside
1933- Jingle, medium loud cry every few secs.
1937- Went in. Reposition. Doesnt like it. Find it difficult to settle. Quite annoyed now. I fan and leave with him crying loudly to an even louder jingle.
1943- crying settling a little, sound more sad, gave a jingle.
1945- crying louder again, reposition/buff/rub back/settled. Cried on exit jingle.
1951- Still quite upset so go back in. As 1945, cries on exit.
2000- still crying, go in, buff to settle. Leave on jingle with no questions but still awake. Give confirmation after a few seconds outside.
ASLEEP
Woke at 2230 after 2.5hrs sleep. A little cough most likely woke him.
2233- Woke crying, went straight in. Reposition/Buff, wriggling a lot, fanned, jingled and left. Crying on exit.
2238- still crying (gently/tired cry)
2241- Firm jingle - no change in crying
2247-Another firm jingle - Still a genle repetative cry every few seconds.
2250- Cry getting quite quiet, sounds like maybe drifting off.
2252- Silence, did Confirmation Jingle after a few seconds of quiet. Hurrah!
2254- Cry, a wimper then a long aaaaahhh.
2255- Louder cry, rising tempo
2258- Went in, reposition/fan/jingle on exit. Cried as i left
2302-Rising cries, went back in, reposition/buff(20seconds)/settled/jingle on exit. cried as i left
2306-Jingle from outside settled a little
2310-mild cries, sounds fed up and tired
2313- rising tempo of cries, went back in reposition/fan/settled/cries on jingle on way out
2317- continuing mild cries, but banging noise. Went in to move away from side of cot. reposition/fan/jingle. Cries very loudly on exit. Quite angry.
2320- Reposition/buff/fan/ softer cry as i jingle out
2333- still gentle/tired/ sad cry ('why me?' kind of cry) reposition/fan to sleep, been awake crying for an hour so helped him off.

You wouldnt believe it but he's the softest, calmest little boy. Never gives us any trouble unlike his little sister. :)
He was also a good sleeper, pretty much getting about 14hrs when breast fed to sleep. Just our situation makes that difficult to continue.

Thanks again for all the help.
Sarisparis
Rådgivare/advisor
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Blev medlem: mån 10 maj 2010, 14:31
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Re: Getting stuck with the buffing

Inlägg av Sarisparis »

Thanks for this report. How was the rest of the night?
SimonV skrev:1945- crying louder again, reposition/buff/rub back/settled.
You need to decide on a plan and stick to it. There's still a lot of traffic, going in 4 times before he even goes to sleep is a lot. And rubbing the back of your son is certainly not anything a safari guide would do, right? :wink: The GNS cure is not a collection of tools to use in a certain order. They simply help to share your own interior calm and security with your son. I'm sorry if I seem a bit hard on you, that is not my intention and I know how tired and exhausted you get when you don't get the sleep you need. Just as your son.
But if you are really decided to go through with the GNS cure you need to do it a hundred percent. If you succumb in the middle of the cure and takes a break to rub your sons back he will be even more confused. Communication through the jingle is what you should aim at.
SimonV skrev:I'm next door on a laptop and have the book on my phone next to me always open.
One of the greatest things I have learned from Annas books and this forum is to trust my child, to trust that he NEEDS to sleep for instance. And to be confident that he also WANTS to sleep and that I, in spite of all my good intentions :roll: , can actually be disturbing him :shock: . Of course you want to be close to your son and be sure to be able to intervene, but when I read your post, I get the impression that you feel like you need to go in and "rescue" your son, whereas your role is to ensure that everything is perfectly fine. I know it's hard to hear your child having a hard time, but if you "confirm" that the danger by going in all the time, he will only ask more questions. Try to put on the famous Attitude, perfectly held by the Safari guide (except "when he suffered that temporary psychotic break of course" :wink: p 68) and share your peace and calm with your son. Only if your son is perfectly convinced that you are all right and that your message 'all is well' is a hundred percent true, he will be able to reach the state of mind of peace and calm which is necessary to good sleep.
That's why the jingle is such a fantastic intervention. It does not disturb your son, he's perfectly fine in his bed and all he needs is to be convinced that it is indeed a safe place - HIS PLACE - and that he can go to sleep.

To be a bit concrete, once you have put your son to bed and left him with the jingle, do not stay outside his door, waiting for the next crisis. :wink: Go to your Very Important Stuff. Vacuum cleaning, washing machine, kitchen cleaning, all are perfect tasks in this situation. Your son hears that life goes on as usual and that you're on guard.
If your son really cries in a sad manner and needs help, then you jingle.
During the night, I think that this kind of sounds are a bit illogical as "at night, nothing happens", but many feel that making some "house" noise is of help. Others prefer to put on some Mozart. Instrumental classical music is to be recommended, nothing with singing as your son would actively listen to the voice. The idea is twofold, on the one hand you show your son that he's not alone and that someone is on guard and on the other you give him something to listen to that will help him to get his mind on something else. Maybe even sleep. :wink: 8)
SimonV skrev:You wouldnt believe it but he's the softest, calmest little boy. Never gives us any trouble unlike his little sister. :)
Of course he's the softest and calmest and most wonderful little boy in the world. :heart: I bet his sister is experiencing what is commonly called "The Terrible Two's" which is a interesting phase for the whole family. :lol: I would strongly recommend you to get a copy of Annas book "For The Love Of Children" where you will find a lot of help to understand what your girl is going through and also a lot of very concrete advice on how to handle this little person.

:heart:
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