Curing baby number two

[Gen.Pe]

Hi! Loved this method the first time around with my eldest son. Going to do the same with supreme confidence with my 5 month old.

Having trouble with his schedule and when the place what.
Keep in mind we are breastfeeding sometimes every 2,3, or 6ish hours. He wakes often after going down for the night and usually around 930 pm he wakes with burps and won’t go to sleep for over an hour.

His current schedule:

Night is between 8-830pm
I breastfeed him (side nursing in my bed- he currently sleeps in a bassinet beside my bed. But does have his own room and crib we will use for cure) at 6/7am and get up for the day myself.
He sleeps until 9/930am
Feed him breast milk <BM> around 10/1030am
Naps around 12-1pm sometimes for 20 min sometimes for 1-1.5 hours. Of course he best sleeps right next to me so sometimes I’ll nap with him.
Feed BM around 2pm
Play (with brother, go in jolly jumper do tummy time) around 230/3
Feed purée and BM around 4-5
Nap around 430pm for 20 min usually
Play (outside, in stroller)
Feed oatmeal around 7/730
Bath right after that
Top up BM after bath around 745/8pm
Down for the night (but not for long )

*important things to note
-I’d like him to be up AFTER his older brother (who wakes around 730am) because I can get breakfast together easier
-id like to have his first nap out of the way by 930/10am so we can go do things
-id like his longest nap to be in unison with his older brothers (1230-230pm)
-we always play outside (whether permitting, were in Canada) after supper, around 6pm so I don’t want to be stuck in the house because of the little ones schedule
-I do like the oatmeal, then bath, then top up with breast milk as I find he eats better that way but perhaps you have a better solution?

How should his schedule be for the cure?
Thanks in advance!!

[TorsMamma]

Hello,

So I will do something we actually NEVER do. I will create a schedule for you. However, You need to put more food in there.

Also, there is no way you can have him wake up after 7.30 to have the naps like you want them.

So here is a rough draft for you. The guidelines are 5+6 months old 12+45+1,5+45 = 15 hours sleep/24 hours.

Night 19.30-07.30 = 12 hours
07.30 AM Wake up and breast feed.
07.50 Breakfast with brother (same as brother? but no salt)
09.00-09.45 AM nap
11.30 Lunch (real food) top off with BM directly after
12.30-14.00 long midday nap (can be 2 hours but then last nap is 20 min)
15.00 Snack and BM
16.00-16.45 PM nap (if long nap is 2 hours this will only be 20 min)
18.00 Dinner/Supper Family time for all eating together.
19.00 Bathtime and top off with with late snack BM/porrige or what ever
19.20 Laughter
19.30 Bedtime

Now, if you are to do the cure you need to fix the bed with both sides up and do the buffing and NO MORE FOOD during the night.
You need to re-read the GNS book another 5 times before you decide to do the cure again. I know that many times the parents "think" they know and that things will be like the last time and you only have great memories. right?

Also, please remember we like them to be outside in the AM and PM 1 hour each. And naptime or sitting still in carrige don't count.

Please have a look and come back how you will have the schedule with the guidelines given above.

[Gen.Pe]

I took your schedule and started the cure shortly after. It’s been just over a month and things during the night are perfect. But my little one wakes at 6am every single day without fail. We give the jingle and after a time the message all morning until 715 (wake time is 730 but I can’t take it much longer usually). He cries incessantly, especially when I lift my hands after fanning and completing the message. On top of that almost every nap is a battle. If he goes down easily he wakes after 20-40min. (Which is fine is it’s after 40 min for the morning and late afternoon naps.) Today as I write this it’s his long afternoon nap and he has been crying pretty hard in between my rounds for nearly an hour. I am at wits end. All the prerequisites are in place. Full of food to the gills. Active. Fresh air when weather allows. Pitch black room. Ive read the book multiple times. I have the right attitude and confidence even when it’s a day like today with horrible naps. I’ve played music and I’ve also used the white noise sound machine- not helping. I’m getting “nervous” the little one will wake and the hell will start so I find I am now sushing my eldest child and limiting activities within the house that are noisy; which I know doesn’t help but it’s started to develop because I am scared he will wake.

Please help with any advice.

[Gen.Pe]

Same terrible naps today! Please reply. I am desperate!

[Tin]

Hi there,
ok lets go into detective mode, and please be honest:
1. What food does he eat? Give me details. And how much per meal, a deciliter? Is there any formula, if so when?
2. Is there any food during the night or out of scheduled time?
3. Is he sleeping on tummy or back?
4. Is there a reason to not move the whole schedule back a bit, between 18:30 - 6:30 for example, lots of babies natural rhythm is early.
5. What do you do when you have outside time? Where do you go, how does baby move around? Is it twice every day?
6. It sounds like you are fanning in the early wakeup, when he wakes up after 4am, there should be a QUICK stern jingle and some music nothing else, is that how you do it or do you fan in the morning as well?
7. Does he crawls, move around on his own, or if not how does he get tired in his muscles?
8. Can you describe in detail your goodnight procedure, with the laughter and how you pop him into bed both daytime and night time?
9. Is it pitch black daytime naps as well, is he sleeping in a crib everytime?
10. How closely do you follow the schedule, is it sort of or exactly? And do you go out and about much trying to get him to sleep other places than his own bed?

Now give me your best answers, any details you think we need to know in order to help, even if something is hard to admit. Just go for it.

Also, lets take a moment and celebrate the fact that baby sleep at night. Yay.
You did well, and we can solve the rest together.

hugs Tin

[Gen.Pe]

Hi there.

1. Yes he eats close to that (I think- I’m in Canada so I’ll say 1/3 to 1/2 a cup of baby purée 3x a day. It used to be 4x a day but we found that with dinner shortly before he wasn’t interested in a snack before I topped him up with breast milk before bed. He is breastfeeding exclusively, no formula, 4x a day as per the above schedule.

2. No, the nights we don’t feed him. He sleeps well in the night. Only problem is waking early regardless it seems of the time he goes to bed.

3. Tummy sleeping

4. I am trying to avoid earlier than 7, because I am up early to work from home in the morning for a few hours so need the peace and quiet. Since current bedtime is 730, you suggest 7-7?

5. Being in Canada it’s really hard in the winter because it’s often too cold. When it’s not though, I do get myself the two kids and one dog ready for the outdoors. And it takes twenty minutes usually and by then the baby is warm and fed up so we often have to go back inside. Activities are limited to him laying in a pile of snow or sitting in a sled or stroller. He’s just began to sit up on his own and somewhat crawl- mostly a shuffle backwards or just hanging out on all fours. But we let him play on the floor often throughout the day or he is in his jolly jumper or exersaucer.

6. Honestly lately his antics were extremely frustrating so we’ve done the whole message. Positioning buffing fanning jingle. We tried to just jingle but he gets even more upset and mad. The crying doesn’t end. Often it just subsides for a few minutes and he’s back at it. This goes on for a minimum of 30 min to 1.5 hours.

7. See above

8. We breastfeed at 645/7pm usually. Then I pop him into the bath for 10-15 minutes. He plays with toys in there. We get him out and rub him down with lavender lotion and during we do laughs. We do another 5 min of laughs, maybe it should be more? I feel like we run out of time at night. Then I shut his bedroom door and turn off his lamp and lay him on his tummy in his crib. I do a message but quick. 20 sec buffing and 20 sec fanning and exit with jingle x4. Daytime naps are the same somewhat. I am in his room and I turn off the light and put him in his crib and so the quick message. I honestly haven’t yet just jingled initially for fear his crying will begin and wake his eldest brother for his nap. I know this is a bad mentality I shouldn’t have fear about it. But his protests are making me feel like I need to be careful.

9. Pitch black both day and night and always in his crib. 95% at home. We tried just last week a nap at grandparents. Room was not pitch black but darkened and he was in a play pen. He wailed the whole time. Sometimes unfortunately he will pass out in the car if our activity runs close to his nap time. In that case I get him not his bed quickly where he usually stays asleep. However not the case lately.

10. We follow the schedule almost always. Because of his crazy naps and the lack of quick response here I changed his schedule to try see what worked. His morning nap is only 20 min at 930am. And his afternoon nap is usually at 1245-1pm now for what I hoped would be two hours but usually it’s 1 hour, 1&15 min or 1&30 minutes at most. His 4pm nap sucks. It takes patience and protesting from him. Usually falls asleep 20 minutes to even fall asleep. So because I assume he’s tired from his shenanigans I do sometimes let him sleep until 515.

I have to admit I’m not excited about the idea of him sleeping elsewhere. No one does the cure methods like me. And it’s a lot to explain to have the grandparents do it if I am not there. Also I have started using a white noise machine because my eldest yells while he plays and it’s often woken the baby. With the little naps he’s getting I am not ready to cut that out and risk his waking.

That’s all I can think of?
Thanks for your help!!

[TorsMamma]

Hi again,

Thanks for answering all the questions!

So a few things I'm thinking is, he is now getting really close to 7 months = adjusting the schedule. Preferably to 2 naps.

Now as Tin is saying it is VERY uncommon for babies to have a natural sleeping pattern of 7.30 PM - 7.30 AM. It is MUCH more common to have 6.30 PM - 6.30 AM. My son's natural rhythm was 7 PM-7 AM so I didn't even try to change this. If you try to give them another pattern than they really want, you need to really have the "attitude of total confidence" in place.
Now, this is where you are lacking at this moment.

So 1. try to figure out a new schedule that actually would work for both you, baby, and family! I do understand you want to work for a few hours in the morning. This is actually what Anna did with all her 9 children. This is where FTLoC book comes in. My son always had his "own playtime" in the crib right after breakfast and took his morning nap with this so I always got around 2 hours on my own in the morning. Same thing for Anna.

2. You really need to re-read chapter 2 Security. If you re-read it you will see that this is where you are stuck. You use all the tools in the toolbox but you haven't worked in the "jingle".
You write write "message" in your answer. I'm not sure what you mean by this. By this time when putting him to bed in the already pitch dark room, flying in, putting him down on belly EXIT with the first verse of the jingle, second and third outside the room and the fourth verse is the "confirmation". And the door is now closed during the jingle. Nothing more should happen at this point.

3. outside and inside. I live in Sweden and we can just like you have very cold winters. I always dress everyone else first and baby last, sometimes even the last fix as I walk out the door. My son could crawl at this time so he would get to crawl in the snow. Go on the slide down and crawl up the slope and more. But you need to go OUT 2 times a day. If you have a dog he also needs to go out. In a worst-case scenario, you can have him in a "baby Bjorn" under a huge jacket to keep warm so he at least sees something new outside for only a moment. The rest of the time he should be on his belly practice crawling.

10. We follow the schedule almost always. Because of his crazy naps and the lack of quick response here I changed his schedule to try see what worked. His morning nap is only 20 min at 930am. And his afternoon nap is usually at 1245-1pm now for what I hoped would be two hours but usually it’s 1 hour, 1&15 min or 1&30 minutes at most. His 4pm nap sucks. It takes patience and protesting from him. Usually falls asleep 20 minutes to even fall asleep. So because I assume he’s tired from his shenanigans I do sometimes let him sleep until 515

Now, we know that there are exceptions to the rule. In Swedish we say one-time = nothing but twice = new habit. Now, if you "most always" means you have deviated from the schedule more than once or so. Then you have a "new habit" and the baby is now wondering what the heck you are doing. If he sleeps until 5.15 PM how can you expect him to understand the schedule at all?
This is like trying to teach someone the clock but move around the clock hand and saying different times how are you to know the clock after that?
You really must keep the scheduled time, the only thing we ever talk about is the 15 min margin that you may use once the schedule is set in his body. If he needs 20 min to fall asleep you put him in bed 15 min before naptime and then clock him for the 20 min so you end the naptime before the 15 min margin is up the other way.

Also, regarding food, I think he really needs ALOT more food. 1/2 a cup will not do it for even a 6-month-old. But the biggest problem is that most babies at this age don't have the patience to sit as long as the parents think they should. So give him something to eat on his own with his fingers (finger food) and then you just stuff him with the regular food. Don't wait for him to swallow and open his mount. Just go! They have the patience for a maximum of 20 min, so you really need to be fast with the food and dessert and more. But distract him with some things he can eat on his own.

When my son had everything in place everyone was wondering "HOW DO YOU DO THAT". We could be a New Year's Eve parties, birthdays, and more, I just brought a traveled, with a sheet to hang over and did our routine a bit, put him in bed, out with the jingle and he fell asleep. So even grandparents will be able to do this.

Now, if all this feels overwhelming I want you to take 3 things with you here!

1. Attitude! You need this!
2. You need to do less and less, so your baby can do more and more. The more you are "curling" him, the less he will need to do and crave that you do more and more.
3. Rome was not built in one day..... Keep the goal in mind, don't focus too much on what is wrong, but where you are going.

[Tin]

Hello again,
yes indeed thank you for very good answers to all my questions.

And Torsmamma, I'm thinking exactly what you are thinking. WAY more food (my kids ate 1 cup at that age at least and then some fruit pure on top of that. New schedule, 2 sleeps make a new schedule, way less interference from mum at bedtime......in fact I don't need to say anything else Tosmamma already said it all.

Just one comment: You say that you are alone in doing this cure, so were I (and many others) - but you know what - I was also alone with having a baby that slept like a trooper all night long (and naps). Does it take some hard work, indeed, is it worth it, absolutely.

We believe you can do this!

Hugs Tin

[Gen.Pe]

To clarify- he eats half a cup per feeding. So 2 cups of purée per day. Plus the breast milk 4x. Plus snacks with his fingers and bits of our food. Sorry should have been more detailed. Is this better then? Or are you saying your kids are one cup per feeding!?

When I say I deviated from the schedule that’s when I was experimenting with nap times. You’re right- what we found was two naps worked best. So as of late he has his first nap at 930am for 20 minutes (should this be 45, because he will definitely sleep that long. Morning naps are the best ones so far). His second nap has been at 1pm for as of late 1.5 - 2 hours. <— yay!

Should I move his bedtime from 7-7? That’s what I did with my first. The playing in the crib idea is good. Question here...if he wakes earlier than 7, can I turn on his light and put toys in the crib to play with for like you said an hour? If he doesn’t last long do I take him out or not until at least 15 min margin before wake up time?

[TorsMamma]

Hello

To clarify- he eats half a cup per feeding. So 2 cups of purée per day. Plus the breast milk 4x. Plus snacks with his fingers and bits of our food. Sorry, should have been more detailed. Is this better then? Or are you saying your kids are one cup per feeding!?

I can't say for sure, but I would say 1 full cup of food/feeding. So that would be 4 cups of food/day. The biggest problem is that most parents don't feed fast enough and they get bored and stop eating. So just keep putting the food in, fast fast fast. a 6-month-old basically has no bottom.

Should I move his bedtime from 7-7? That’s what I did with my first

Might be a good idea.

The playing in the crib idea is good. Question here...if he wakes earlier than 7, can I turn on his light and put toys in the crib to play with for like you said an hour? If he doesn’t last long do I take him out or not until at least 15 min margin before wake up time?

quick answer NO! YOu really need to read about the idea and thought behind this so you really understand HOW and WHY to do it! Also, you keep the sleep with the schedule, there is no compromise here!

You wake up at 07 as if it was his birthday every single morning! Give him say a bottle or breastfeed (or breakfast). After this is the playtime and nap all in one. Read about it in the FTLoC (For the Love of Children) You will find SOOOO many answers to so many questions you have and solutions that are just the best! I promise! I still read it in accordance with my son now 14 years old.

[Gen.Pe]

What I have found (I’ve read the book a handful of times now) is that the sleep and the cure don’t always go exactly like the book says in all its examples. We come to the forum to get answers the book isn’t specific enough on. Even sometimes on here the answers are not specific enough.

I will up his food then, I do feed fast too. Distractions are a big thing at this age I agree.

We’ve moved his nights from 7-7. Now he wakes every night at 10pm ish. It’s like we can’t win in either direction.

I understand why not to pick them up from bed or deviate from the schedule. But I wanted to be crystal clear on your answers previous about playing in the crib and when. M

And my question about the length of his first morning nap? It can be 20 min or 45 min or longer based on his needs. But what’s the book/you experts recommendations?

I will pick up the other book if I can find it. Anna whalgrens works are not published anywhere that I can find. I am lucky I have a kobo reader copy of GNS on my iPad from the first time I cured my son in 2017!

[Gen.Pe]

And in the case of when he cry’s when he wakes at 10pm. He is angry. Cries very violently. What then? Before you mentioned we do less so he can do more. I’ve tried every which way:

I just jingle 4x from outside his door= mad mad loud cries from him (jingling only to settle him worked during the cure. Not after? Just made him more upset?)
I go in and do “the message”as per the book from start to finish...corrective positioning fan over the back buff round off with fanning and then exit with jingle x4. = as soon as I stop buffing mad cries. Even louder cries when I leave the room with jingles.

I have tried it all in the sense that when jingles clearly don’t work...I let him nearly cry it out for fear I am going in there too much. I don’t like that. And I have also done the buffing etc every ten minutes. Both I’ve done at worst for two hours.

So tell me- what would you do?

[TorsMamma]

Hi,

As you say, the book is not extremely generalizing and not perhaps very detailed. However, this is because every child is different. If there was ONE manual for all children then all sleeping and raising children problems would be solved, right?

So this is why we don't give EXACT advice, I only do that when hired and in place so that I myself can "listen" to the child. The key is to LISTEN and then figure out WHAT is the question. And THEN act in accordance.

This is why I gave you the 3 last pieces of advice that I gave you. I can tell you in detail do 10 of this, do 5 of that, and then jump backward 10 times and this will solve the problem. HOWEVER, if you don't believe or have the attitude when doi8ng this I can give you 1000 advice that will have NO effect.
On the other hand, I can have parents who don't follow much of the book at all nor our advice but have 120% of the attitude and everything works as a charm.

This you must understand is why we can NEVER tell you exactly the amount of food, nor the exact time, and so on. This is also up to every child. When we feed them, we think of it as a starter, main course, and then dessert. After that, we kindly try giving them a cup of coffee with a cookie. Now if you say you give your child "main course" we will say add a starter, dessert, and perhaps ask if he would like some coffee. IT is not the "amount" we are after, but the attitude behind it. EVery feeding should be served with this "ATTITUDE" if you understand what I mean? The same thing when you put your child in the car, you put them in the car seat. Right? You don't question why you fasten the seat belt, nor question when he is angry like crazy for sitting there, right? That is the attitude!

If you act like an anxious waiter, lingering around the table asking if food is ok, asking if you need anything, asking if you enjoy their service, asking, asking, asking. Then YOu will not enjoy the meal, right? This is a parent who has lost their attitude.

In Swedish we have a thread called the "Thai massage". This is a post where you go to a massage therapist and you don't want them to stop, right? They stop and you ask for more, correct? You get a little more. They stop and say, now it is over! How angry if you were a baby would you be? And they can't say it in words, so they cry, get angry, stand up, and more.

IN clear words, YOU OVERMASSAGE HIM!

jingling only to settle him worked during the cure. Not after? Just made him more upset?

Exactly, and if he gets upset you?????? (TADA, enter the room to "massage") This puts you in the position that he cries, you jingle but the jingle gets the meaning, PLEASE keep gong long enough, I will then enter for your massage!!!!!

I go in and do “the message”as per the book from start to finish...corrective positioning fan over the back buff round off with fanning and then exit with jingle x4. = as soon as I stop buffing mad cries. Even louder cries when I leave the room with jingles.

SPOT ON!!! Now when you finally do this wonderful massage and you STOP! HOW DARE YOU!?!?!?!. Why shouldn't he be more angry then before??

You keep doing more and more, to get him quiet. This is NOT a cure where we get them quiet as fast as possible! This is a cure where we DONT cry it out! Now, a child that is "screaming ANGRY" is NOT sad, does NOT need any "massage reward" nor any other things. They need to be left alone with their anger, perhaps a jingle letting him know you are outside, but most likely will only make him angrier. So keep waiting UNTIL, (here is the key) his screaming is becoming a cry, sadness, asking for help to calm down. THEN, THEN you get the softest and most calming of jingles possible, that should calm him down. If necessary you can say it X6 or even X8 to calm him down. But for now, you need to understand that the jingle means (please keep it up, I will be back with your massage)

I have tried it all in the sense that when jingles clearly don’t work...I let him nearly cry it out for fear I am going in there too much. I don’t like that. And I have also done the buffing etc every ten minutes. Both I’ve done at worst for two hours.

How do you feel about this sentence above now that I have explained it to you? STill, doing less?

So tell me- what would you do?

This is my point, I can't tell you exactly WHAT to do, I'm not there, all I say is LISTEN, have the "Jingle discussion". You might have to jingle as an answer to this discontent, angriness, sadness, despair, and more up to 100 times. You jingle, he answers, you jingle again, you answer. This is a discussion that you have with your child. He is NOT alone, you are there. Re-read the SAFARI chapter! And as I said again the security! That starts with, (now you know how to calm even the most upset child, but you can't stop here..........)

Below is 2 links, one for the paper book GNS and the other for FTLoC in English.

https://www.awsbokhandel.se/store/p/shn ... ka)-809087

https://www.awsbokhandel.se/store/p/bar ... ka)-912574

And here is the address to the e-mail try e-mailing and ask if they can send the books to you!

E-mail: awbokhandel@gmail.com

So, you need to find the attitude, you need to listen, and try to think of this the same way you do with the car seat, life jacket in a boat, and so on. Your job is to communicate calm and safety. Steady as a rock!